What if?

[Tretiak]

As I was recently looking over statistics of players in the hall of fame to see what chance certain future candidates have, I was going over the goals per game average through the top goal scorers of all time and found something intresting.

Wayne Gretzky stands at a .60 goals per game average, and obviously has scored the most goals.


There are only 3 people that have bested that average, and they are as followed.


Mario Lemieux (.76), Mike Bossy (.76), and Pavel Bure (.62)

And one thing stuck in my mind that they all have in common...all three were riddled with injuries throughout their career. Bossy forced to retire early, Bure was hampered with a bad knee throughout his career, and forced him to retire early, and a bad back and Hodgkis (sp?) disease has sidelined Mario for a good portion of his career...

There's one question that I'll throw out to people just for the heck of it..

Had these 3 players had a full, healthy career as Gretzky had, do you think they would surpass the Great one as far as goals go?

[OILERS ROCK]

I would say only Mario would have a chance. Bossy was consistant but in the time Gretzky was scoring 92 goals he was scoring in the 50's and 60's. If you had continues into the 90's he would have been down to 20 or 30 goal seasons. Bure didn't play at all in the 80's and was a great player. If he had been healthy he would have been up there but not to 894. Gretzky carrer wasn't all healthy like in 93 he missed a good part of the season. If Mario had been 5 years older and started playing the same time as Gretzky then with those extra 80's years he would have been right there with Gretzky competing for the scoring title.

[Tretiak]

Gretzky was sidlined partially for one season...that's nothing compared to what Lemieux, Bossy, and especially Bure have faced.


Some intresting statistics to take note of:

Gretzky played 1487 games and scored 894 times


-Pavel Bure scored 435 times in only 702 games

-In EVERY season he played at least 70 games, he scored 50 or more

-Scored 154 times in his first three seasons prior to getting hurt during his 5th season (4th season was the 40-game lockout season)


-Mike Bossy scored 50 or more goals in every year of his career except for his final season.

-He scored 573 goals in only 752 games.


I don't know...it's hard to say. It's hard to say if Lemieux will even play 1,000 games in his career.

It's hard to say what Bure would have done had he had a healthy career...but I'd wager he'd have had a good chance.

He had so many seasons where he had to sit out from a knee injury, and would come back time and time again and score 50 during times when nobody else would..

I think Bossy no question would have beaten Gretzky's record had he played the same ammount of games...I'd wager that Bossy's the most natural goal scorer ever.

Lemieux didn't play for like 3 or 4 seasons during the mid 90's...so that's hampered his chances.


Again, it's hard to say if these people could have, but I want people's opinions on this, since I think it's an intresting question.

[OILERS ROCK]

I think one big thing is the 80s. Goalies were weaker then and letting in more goals. Bure would have stormed through the 80s like no tomorrow. Another thing is that Gretzky had the chance to play with plenty of good players with chemistry in Edmonton. If it had been Lemeux in his place then we would all talk about the great 66 and in second number 99. Bossy was a great play hands down but even without injuries I don't think he would have made it to 800 goals. 700 maybe but not 800. But we could talk about this all day and like you said there is no way to know what could have happaned. All I know is that these guys are all Hall of Fame material.

[Tretiak]

I see..

Speaking of the hall of fame, what are the standards for getting into the hall?

So far it seems to me is that you have to have played for either Montreal, Detroit, Toronto, or the Islanders..

It lets in too many players who really haven't had outstanding careers...

Most noteably players like Clark Gillies, John Bucyk, Bobby Clarke..

I kind of wish a true L.A. King would be in the Hall...I think it's a crime that Charlie Simmer, Dave Taylor, or Rogie Vachon aren't in the Hall..and I'm skeptic is that they only let Dionne in because he played for the wings....

Just seems to me that you could limit the NHL Hof down to maybe 10-15 deserving players..that's not including goalies..

but, anyways, while I'm on the subject, what do you think of the next ballot?

I hear it's going to look something like..

Doug Gilmour
Pavel Bure
Brian Leetch
Mike Richter
Tom Barasso
Patrick Roy


I have a strong feeling Bure won't make it just because he's Russian and didn't play on one of Hockey's royalty teams. Despite dominating his era...

Roy will obviously make it in, Leetch will have trouble because he's American, same with Richter and Barasso..

so..yeah, if you know of any other possible people to go on the next ballot, just tell me.

[OILERS ROCK]

Roy is a shoe-in of corse.

Barasso was a great goalie but just from the fact Roy is there he might get knocked out another season. And as you said he is U.S.

Same with Richter

Leetch isn't retired. He will definanty be in though. Look at Rod Langway (only Hame of Famer I ever met)

Bure is a maybe. So many injuries to shorten his carrer.

Gilmour is also a maybe. The mear fact that he played for 3 Canadian teams and is from Canada my get him in.

[Tretiak]

I really hate the Hockey hall of fame to be honest...they could have made it so good, but really, they filled it full of Canadian fan favorites.

Really no Americans with the exception of Joe Mullen, 2 Russians (Fetisov and Tretiak), one Finnish player (Jari Kuri)...and that's really it.

How does somebody like Bobby Clarke make it? He's the biggest coward ever to play.

Clark Gillies? John Bucyk...oh, big deal.

The name "Hall of fame" suggests the best of the best, right?

If it were up to me, I'd let in only the players that dominated their eras..

So here's how my HOF would look


Fowards:

Mike Bossy
Wayne Gretzky
Luc Robitaille
Marcel Dionne
Pavel Bure
Mario Lemieux
Brian Trottier
Brett Hull


Defensemen:

Bobby Orr
Paul Coffey
Brian Leetch
Ray Bourque


(that's really all I can think of, please remind me of other ones if you think there's some others i should add to the Defense list)

Goalies:

Vladislav Tretiak
Grant Fuhr
Dominik Hasek
Ken Dryden
Patrick Roy
Mike Richter
Rogie Vachon



feel free to add to that list if you want.

[OILERS ROCK]

Again I say that Rod Lawgway is in the Hall of Fame. He was good but he wasn't greatness. There are some other players I would add including John Bucyk. He is the one that Robitaille just passed for yop scoring LW. I would put in Mike Gartner and Bobby Hull and Espo and Messier and Howe.

For the D-men I would put in Al MacInnis for one.

Goalies look good but what about the old-timers like Clint Benadict (Sp?) or Georges Veznia. They were great goalies but not many are around now to vouge for them, just their stats.

[Tretiak]

Well, out of the ones you listed, here's my critique.

Bucyk, no.

Gartner, yes, he scored a shit load of goals

The Golden Jet, yes

Espo, eh...why not

Howe, no

Messier, no.

MaCinnis, yes



The reasons why I wouldn't put Messier or Howe in...is because they never did anything spectacular.

Did How ever hit the 50 goal mark? No. Messier hit it once...and that was like 100 years ago.

All they did was play a long time and get a ton of goals by gradually chipping away each year. They didn't dominate their eras...

I'd only put people in the hall of fame who dominated their eras.

When you think of the 80's, you think of Gretzky, Bossy, Gartner, and others

The 90's, names like Bure, Lemieux, Jagr, and Selanne come up.

You also have to put the respective people who hold the records at their position..

Gretzky owns the center position, Brett Hull's numbers will most likely never be beaten by another right wing, and Robitaille owns every record nearly for Left Wing.

Anyways...Howe doesn't impress me. I mean, for a man who's put in every Canadian's "top 5 players list", he sure hasn't done much...never notched 50, much less 60 or 70 in a year when the game was wide open.

Anyways, obviously I shouldn't include Robitaille in, yet, since he's still playing...but he's a shoo-in

[OILERS ROCK]

Howe did Dominate his era. No one scored 50 goals then. No one got 100 points then. He did he one 100 point season but he did dominate.

[Tretiak]

didn't Richard play during Howe's early years? I know he was put up 50 a few times.

[OILERS ROCK]

In 1945 (the year before Howe started) The Rocket scored 50 goals and never did again. Howe was a great player and the most he had was 49 goals in a season. He also put up a lot of assists which is where The Rocket didn't preform as well. even playing that many years, you don't score 801 goals and not be considered one of the best and a Hall of Famer.

[Tretiak]

To be quite honest, I don't think the NHL had much to show for before the 70's when they started playing the Soviets for world domination in Hockey..

And if I really wanted to be cynical, I'd say I don't consider Hockey legit prior to the late 80's, early 90's when players from all around the world started playing, whereas before that it, it was an all-Canadian game.

[Jackie18]

Sure Gretzky was great, but as far as I'm concerned, if injuries and health issues had not plagued Mario, no one would beat him at anything.
If Gretzky were the same age and had begun playing at the same time, there may have been a different story. I think that because he had just recently been named the "Great One", it was too soon to have a new idol come on the scene to actually recognize Mario for what he was. An amazing hockey player. His junior records are still unbeaten. No one has had dominance like he did!
The problem, as I say, was timing, and the fact that no one was allowed to check Gretzky, yet Mario was out there and he was "free game". Smash him. Put him out for the season. Every game he played, that, was the object of the opponents game plan. Take Mario out. If HE had been given the same respect as Gretzky. Look out record books. Too Bad!

[Tretiak]

It wasn't that Gretzky was generally respected during his days in edmonton and L.A...he had McSorely to watch his back.